Comments on: Correcting the Student: A Quiet Argument http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/2008/05/04/correcting-the-student-a-quiet-argument/ Closing the Achievement Gap: Teaching Content Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:17:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Diana Senechal http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/2008/05/04/correcting-the-student-a-quiet-argument/#comment-3976 Diana Senechal Tue, 06 May 2008 20:51:55 +0000 http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=370#comment-3976 I enjoy all the above comments. Vital Core, you make an excellent point. Most of the emphasis in ed school and PD is on making the learning cooperative, hands-on, and "accessible". The subject matter recedes far into the background. If you love the subject, you find yourself bewildered by the fluff: the activities that seem designed to separate kids from the subject matter and deter, not welcome, actual engagement. Ms. Macdonald, I agree with you in principle, but I don't believe that praise should be obligatory. Once it is obligatory, it stops being sincere. Yes, if an essay is strong in one area, a teacher can point out that strength to help the student see how to revise. But one should not have to "cushion" criticism with praise, nor should a teacher "owe" a student a compliment. I don't think you were saying that--but that's the tenor of many a constructivist argument and even a few mandates. Robert, yes, we absolutely need to teach grammar. It is not a dull subject; and even if it were, too bad. I find my students eager to learn how sentences actually work. It gives them great satisfaction to be able to tackle a sentence as though it were math. When I teach a grammar lesson, everyone wants to come up to the board to solve the problems. Yet we are told that grammar instruction should be incidental, not systematic. As a result, you get kids in high school who write “the boy's are in the park,” who couldn't tell a subordinate clause from Santa's helpers, and who confuse “there,” “their,” and “they’re.” I enjoy all the above comments. Vital Core, you make an excellent point. Most of the emphasis in ed school and PD is on making the learning cooperative, hands-on, and “accessible”. The subject matter recedes far into the background. If you love the subject, you find yourself bewildered by the fluff: the activities that seem designed to separate kids from the subject matter and deter, not welcome, actual engagement.

Ms. Macdonald, I agree with you in principle, but I don’t believe that praise should be obligatory. Once it is obligatory, it stops being sincere. Yes, if an essay is strong in one area, a teacher can point out that strength to help the student see how to revise. But one should not have to “cushion” criticism with praise, nor should a teacher “owe” a student a compliment. I don’t think you were saying that–but that’s the tenor of many a constructivist argument and even a few mandates.

Robert, yes, we absolutely need to teach grammar. It is not a dull subject; and even if it were, too bad. I find my students eager to learn how sentences actually work. It gives them great satisfaction to be able to tackle a sentence as though it were math. When I teach a grammar lesson, everyone wants to come up to the board to solve the problems. Yet we are told that grammar instruction should be incidental, not systematic. As a result, you get kids in high school who write “the boy’s are in the park,” who couldn’t tell a subordinate clause from Santa’s helpers, and who confuse “there,” “their,” and “they’re.”

]]> By: vital core http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/2008/05/04/correcting-the-student-a-quiet-argument/#comment-3804 vital core Mon, 05 May 2008 15:39:13 +0000 http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=370#comment-3804 What a great post. I can still see the "A" and "Great Job!" on my high-school calculus tests...but also my Chinese roomate in the university suggesting I go back and relearn basic mathmatics! The rise of the "educator" is problematic here. It's obvious we will never have people who care more about ths subject than the student until we pull people from their own field of expertise. In other words, most educators who teach chemistry today are "people" people, while actual chemists who love chemistry aren't allowed to teach without giving up chemistry! They are the only ones who will have the heart to tell a student without hesitation when they can't do chemistry. They love the subject more than the student. I just wish I had a mathematician teaching me math in school... What a great post. I can still see the “A” and “Great Job!” on my high-school calculus tests…but also my Chinese roomate in the university suggesting I go back and relearn basic mathmatics!

The rise of the “educator” is problematic here. It’s obvious we will never have people who care more about ths subject than the student until we pull people from their own field of expertise.

In other words, most educators who teach chemistry today are “people” people, while actual chemists who love chemistry aren’t allowed to teach without giving up chemistry! They are the only ones who will have the heart to tell a student without hesitation when they can’t do chemistry. They love the subject more than the student.

I just wish I had a mathematician teaching me math in school…

]]> By: Robert Pondiscio http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/2008/05/04/correcting-the-student-a-quiet-argument/#comment-3721 Robert Pondiscio Mon, 05 May 2008 02:16:16 +0000 http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=370#comment-3721 Perhaps because, like Diana, I taught in NYC, my experience mirrors hers almost precisely. Much arrant nonsense masquerading as best practice, for example, we were told never to use red pen in making corrections, because it was upsetting to the child. Moreover, the move is to make each child a memoirist, plumbing the depths of their nine-year old souls for "small moments" and "moments that matter." Personal expression is paramount, and corrections are for pedants. It begets, at its worst, a kind of narcissism, where the only thing worth writing about is personal experience, and the successful writer is the one who can unburden himself most fully, not communicate most clearly. As a teacher, I'm with Ms. McDonald. It's not a binary choice, to correct or not. But if we do not teach our students to communicate well and yes, grammatically, we risk loosing them tomorrow upon a world that will judge them harshly, no matter how sensitive we might be today Perhaps because, like Diana, I taught in NYC, my experience mirrors hers almost precisely. Much arrant nonsense masquerading as best practice, for example, we were told never to use red pen in making corrections, because it was upsetting to the child. Moreover, the move is to make each child a memoirist, plumbing the depths of their nine-year old souls for “small moments” and “moments that matter.” Personal expression is paramount, and corrections are for pedants. It begets, at its worst, a kind of narcissism, where the only thing worth writing about is personal experience, and the successful writer is the one who can unburden himself most fully, not communicate most clearly.

As a teacher, I’m with Ms. McDonald. It’s not a binary choice, to correct or not. But if we do not teach our students to communicate well and yes, grammatically, we risk loosing them tomorrow upon a world that will judge them harshly, no matter how sensitive we might be today

]]> By: Marian Macdonald http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/2008/05/04/correcting-the-student-a-quiet-argument/#comment-3699 Marian Macdonald Sun, 04 May 2008 19:08:18 +0000 http://www.coreknowledge.org/blog/?p=370#comment-3699 I agree with most of DS's points. The choice doesn't need to be between harsh, heavy-handed correction or no correction at all. Writing teachers have known for some time that in critiquing a student essay one can choose a point, a paragraph, or a sentence that works especially well, praise it, and then show how and why other parts of the essay were not as successful. If this critique is specific, concrete, and focused, a student usually finds it successful and learns from it. MM I agree with most of DS’s points. The choice doesn’t need to be between harsh, heavy-handed correction or no correction at all. Writing teachers have known for some time that in critiquing a student essay one can choose a point, a paragraph, or a sentence that works especially well, praise it, and then show how and why other parts of the essay were not as successful. If this critique is specific, concrete, and focused, a student usually finds it successful and learns from it.
MM

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